Comment

Staff Comment by Professor Jeff on February 13, 2013 at 9:11pm

@Damien

Actually, you've done a great job of arguing the exact point that I was trying to make. You've decided that you know every side to this debate and that there are absolutes that are not worth examining from any other angle than 'right' or 'wrong'. If you go back and listen to my opinions on previous BS and Email Shows, Happy Hours, Call In Shows, or any time that this issue comes up, it should be absolutely crystal clear that I'm not in favor of excluding women from gaming.

All I've been saying here is that I think that these issues are too complex to be argued from an 'i'm right and you're wrong' point of view. On the other hand, you've implied that I'm a rape apologist, insinuated that I think that women's rights activists are 'asking for it', and generally portrayed me as a monster because I won't capitulate and agree with your point of view.

In your response to my previous comment you offered two extremely narrow reasons that someone might lash out at another human being. Don't you understand that that is the exact line of thinking that you are supposedly fighting against? In fact, all I'm asking for is the exact same consideration that Ms. Sarkeesian is advocating in her videos to be given to her detractors. Feminists want women to be portrayed as more than just stereotypical damsels, sex objects, or femme fatales. Those preconceptions are limiting to a group of human beings who are more complex than the narrow parameters of those tropes will allow. What I'm saying is that the exact same thing can be said about her detractors.

You seem to think that the people who are being vulgar or abusive in this debate need to shut up and go away. How often has that exact sentiment been levied against women's rights advocates? We're all people here and I'm trying to tell you that people are not as complicated as a) or b). People have good days and bad. People get frustrated and lose their cool. People say things that they regret. People will lash out at what they don't understand. People will fight back when they feel oppressed. People will do crazy things for dumb reasons... but they're still people.

At this point I feel like you're either going to think about what I've said or it doesn't matter anymore because you've mentally reduced me to mysoginist scum and therefore it doesn't matter what I say. However, before I check out of this thread, for good this time, let me leave you with a quote that may say more than I ever could:

"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend."

-Abraham Lincoln

Comment by DCBlackbird on February 13, 2013 at 1:27pm

I am fairly new here but could someone tell me where I would Email my questions or BS?

Comment by Damocles on February 13, 2013 at 8:31am

@ Lady Stark

Thank you for giving an answer to my orginal question, sadly I still don't understand fully how they should be portrayed.  Switching out a male character for a female character just for the sake of having more female characters doesn't seem genuine to me; more like pandering.  I think if we had more roles/stories that are distinctly female (not really sure if I phrased that right) then we could see a stronger presence of women in games.  Maybe you can recommend some books, or T.V shows that could help me better understand you point of view (although I realize it's not your responsibility to educate).

Comment by Markunator on February 13, 2013 at 6:13am

Damn straight, Jeff! Anita Sarkeesian is a fucking idiot, and a pseudointellectual to boot. 

Comment by Johnny Rico on February 13, 2013 at 6:07am

What the hell is going on in here?

Comment by Mr Rimmer on February 13, 2013 at 5:34am

Sorry but the comments/attacks/petty arguments on ALL of the many pages of this are just too much. I come here for a games chat and conversation but not arguments and attacks.

Comment by Julien Hemmendinger on February 13, 2013 at 2:44am

Korey and Jason Dead Space 3 play through? Is that what you said!? =D

Comment by Lady Stark on February 13, 2013 at 2:33am

@Professor Jeff

The statement: I don't believe that Ms. Sarkeesian is asking people to have a conversation about feminism or consider her point of view. Most of her videos end with what can be politely described as an edict. These edicts are smartly worded, very light, and may slip by many of her viewers, but they are not questions, they are commands. This is the part about her that bugs me more than anything. It's not so much her message, which in some cases I can agree with, it's the way that she frames the issue. I do not take favorably to those who tell me what to do and how to think no matter how glitzy the presentation. Personally, I'd much rather see her debate, answer questions from people who disagree with her, or engage in a more public sense rather than simply make declarative statements and dismissive faces.

I understand what you are saying.  I do respect your opinions and that you took the time to address things.  I think we can agree to disagree, and although I stand by my original opinion that’s she not a con artist or asshole, I feel like I have a better understanding of peoples’ dislike of her. Somethings people have brought up I do agree with, such as her having condescending tone, however I see enough value in what she does to overlook that. 

The one thing I would like to point out though, is that many people did bring up the comments thing before on this tread.   Many here expressed that they felt she manipulating things, because she disabled the comments for most of her other videos but not her kick starter video.  I do get why they feel that way, but my opinion is that she felt the comment she received were a reflection of the comments female gamers receive from male gamers.    So she wanted to show them, to show why her tropes vs. video games had value.  I don’t consider that manipulation or "baiting" but to each their own.  Also, I'd like to point out there is no proof that she spammed posted on 4chan, anyone could have posted as her.

I also think it would be better and more credible for her to engage in debates with people who disagree with her.  However, she's not obligated to provide a place for people voice criticism and just because someone has valid criticisms with her arguments doesn’t mean they are entitled for her response.  Perhaps she didn’t want comments or to engage in debate because she felt it wasn’t worth sorting through thousands of hate comments to get to the ones that were valid. Or maybe her haters are right and she’s a narcissist who only wants her opinions shown.  Ultimately, it doesn't matter, because it’s her content and her youtube channel so she has the right to decide either way.  If she’s loses viewers or credibility for it, that’s her problem, but it doesn’t justify the hatred for her (not your saying it does, but others have implied it).

A question: Some folks here have asked you what sort of game you would envision that would be more in line with your idea of a more positive female representation in modern entertainment. I looked through the responses, but I don't think I saw an answer. I would be very interested in your thoughts. I would be equally interested in any games that you feel already go in the right direction towards embodying what you see as the future of gender equality in modern entertainment. If none exist, how about any game that gets close and what it does right and wrong.

Keep in mind I can only speak for myself and I’m also rather new to games (why I listen to the podcast).  However, what I would I like to see is more portrayals of different types of women. Most women in video games are white (or have white features) and very sexy. I don’t think there is anything wrong with these characters, in fact I love sexy women, but I think there is room for other types of female characters.  Like more with realistic body measurements. More minority women would be awesome too.  I also don’t want most female character to have no purpose besides being sexy or a ploy for men—yes, sometimes the story will call for that, but it shouldn’t be the default.   Furthermore, I would like to see female characters not be made stupid or incompetent just so a male character can save her—again, I’m not saying all video games have to be this way, I understand some guys may want that for the fantasy aspect, I’d just like to see it less prominent.  

This “wishlist” if you will, really goes for most other forms of media and doesn’t just apply to women, but other underrepresented groups.  I actually don’t think videos games are any more problematic than many movies and TV show.  However, I think the difference is video games are interactive so the troublesome aspects are felt more, if that makes sense.  Plus there is the sexism women face from (mostly) male players that gives the issue more attention.  In my opinion that’s a bigger issue than how women are actually portrayed in the games, and what may keep more women from becoming developers.

 I haven’t played enough games to give you a clear example of what I think fits this mold or is at least heading in the right direction. I’m sure someone else here could, or perhaps some popped into your head.  An example I can give from another media is Game of Thrones.  The women are diverse (personality wise) and well rounded.  Again this is just my opinion.  

Comment by G-man on February 13, 2013 at 1:34am

@Damien

The thing is that she was really just trying to stir up the pot just to get people to sympathize with her and to further her agenda. Now, I'm not saying that she deserved what was said to her but it seems as if that's was her plan. Like Professor Jeff said, she has been blocking comments and choosing which ones to show publicly so it brings out some frustration from people who want to be heard. How can people discuss things or debate if they can't even express their viewpoint without getting blocked? If you disagree then you're obviously a misogynist or sexist, which is what this argument has been coming to lately. We should be able to discuss and debate this without it being as if you are on one side or the other.

Comment by Superbadmike on February 13, 2013 at 1:25am

@ Professor Jeff

Could not have said it better myself. I don't necessarily disagree with what AS is saying, it's the way she is saying it that pissed me off. It's as if she is talking to us as if we are children, scolding us for our sexism and stating that we are wrong if we disagree with her, no matter what we have to say. Hers is not a democratic dialogue or share of ideas, hers is a condescending tirade, ignoring or insulting all those who dare contradict her. I understand some more childish people will insult her, but by censoring those people, she is also censoring smart people who have justified contradictions to her edicts. Until she decides to finnaly open a dialogue with other people, everything she does means nothing. 

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