"You shall not pass." vs. "I am your father."

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Permalink Reply by MDS on December 14, 2008 at 7:41am

Darth Vader's comment of "I am your father" has more significance than "You Shall not pass"

Here's just a couple of reasons why.

FIrst off, when I hear the words "you shall not pass", I don't automatically think of LOTR.... I think Monty Python's Holy Grail.

Another reason is because when it came out, everyone was expecting to hear the "PASS" comment, because we KNEW it was coming.

For Star Wars, "Father" was such a HUGE surprise to the audience, and it shocked the WHOLE trilogy's storyline to it's CORE.

By far, the biggest thing to remember is that Fellowship is already seven years old, and it's ALREADY loosing some of it's appeal to the market. Look at how much the sales for merchandise has dropped off. Sorry, but it's going to NEVER match up to the original Star Wars Trilogy. As good of a story that it is, and the other good things the LOTR trilogy has going for it, there's just no way you can honestly say that it's the "better" or "next great thing" when you compare it to Star Wars 4-6.

What LOTR fans have to remember is that Star Wars 4-6 isn't just about the trilogy now. It's about what it did to the HOLLYWOOD industry as a whole.
Star Wars brought back a dying genre of "Sci-Fi", it EVOLVED so many different production departments. Visual Effects, Animatronics, Camera-Equipment, Camera-Usage, Miniatures, Special Effects-make up, Special Effects-props.... all of these and more were completely rethought and revolutionized by Star Wars 4-6.
LOTR? Oh, it was CGI -- which Wasn't NEW.

Star Wars ingrained it's popularity on a complete GENERATION of audience members. You saw it because of limited options to the audience.
LOTR? If you weren't a Sci-Fi or "Fantasy" movie fan, you have enough outlets to AVOID the movie if you want to.

Star Wars literally brought back the use of Orchestral scores. After loosing 'popularity' to modern music or songs, John William's score helped revitalize the practice of Orchestral themes to movies.
LotR? Soundtrack isn't as popular today as it was just 2 years ago.

Here's my main point. Regardless of any praise or justified 'love' people have for the Lord of The Rings trilogy, you can't compare it to the impact and 'Respect' of the Star Wars (original) trilogy. They came out in completely different cultures of movie audiences and Industry. It's almost like comparing which is "better designed", the Great Wall of China or the Wall between East-West Germany. Both were created to prevent people from going back and forth. They both did their job at their times, but one is REVERED as a Technical MARVEL and the other one isn't. One is now a sign of pride and the other isn't even around.

While the older SW fan-base might start to fade away due to age, and other SW products that don't fulfill the potential of the Star Wars legacy. LoTR is done. You can't expand on the LoTR universe any more without rewriting the LoTR itself. Their stories have ended. The SW universe still finds new stories and characters to continue to bring new life and new enjoyment from. Just look at the Clone Wars (Both Versions) TV shows. Look at the amount of games being made that fall within the SW universe that use "Main Movie Characters" as "Side" characters in their stories.

Once the Hobbit movie is done, the LoTR legacy (on Film) will be completed. The Prequel, the story and then what? There is no 'after'. For SW, there IS a further story to tell.... the rebuilding of the Jedi, the return of Democracy, the search for remaining Imperial forces, the rebuilding of trust.... the future is endless in the SW universe, but over in the LOTR universe.

And here endth the Dissertation.

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Permalink Reply by Louis MacAllistar on December 14, 2008 at 7:48am

good question!
Its a challenge to think which one had more impact & which one was more memorable.
Vaders line not only lasted the last 20-30 years, but it also pushed the story for more impact. The "WTF" reaction the audiences had in cinemas around the globe made sure that this was a line to forever prove that you can have a good story in popcorn movies.
However Gandalfs line is phenominally delivered. It gives the sense of a threat as well as a promise. Issued to a 40 foot demon of flames I was convinced that Gandalf had the kahunas of hercules after that. With the opening scene of part 2 where he's giving the beat down, it's resolve to see the threat was delivered as promised.
So I'm going to have to go with Vader-since his line was for revelation of a plot that caused impact. That's what made the story famous, & memorable. It was almost a secret language to all the kids of the late 70's that you all had a common bond. Back when movies were for kids & people with wild imaginations, & not for the family like it is today where everything is pg13, & the imagination is spoon fed. ie:mums, dads & even little sisters would recognise "You shall not pass"- where in the mid eighties, only sci fi g33ks would get "I AM your father!"
-also, in using the quotes in every day context...I'm your father has more fun application, where "you shall not pass" is more for clever delivery eg:bouncer at a night club

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Permalink Reply by DjGoldenGorilla on December 14, 2008 at 8:20am

Yeah i have to say I am your father is way more significant, because the impact not only affects the character but the audience.
The statment makes the movie movie better and it carries on the next one and the one before it.
You shal not pass is at almost the middle of the mmovie and it just shows a part of the battle that isnt even shown.
I am your father left you thinking about the first movie and what is going to happen.
You shall not pass jus lets you know that the wizard is fighting and I feel bad but well lets keep going.
But either way good question.

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Permalink Reply by Freddy H.G. on December 14, 2008 at 8:29am

Wow, those are very intriguing arguments. In all significance with pop culture, Vader's line has much more impact than Gandalf's. I'm at the other end of the world yet people here are more susceptible to "i am your father" because its history and also because "you shall not pass", eventhough is featured in one of the most successful movie in history, is a bit random and ppl wouldn't necessarily peg that to LOTR.


I myself would go for
GET TO THE CHOPPA!!

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Permalink Reply by PoopaPapaSanta on December 14, 2008 at 9:13am

Didn't we already have this discussion?

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Permalink Reply by Deadpool on December 14, 2008 at 9:33am

Since I use "I am your father" almost everyday and everytime I say people always think of Vader, so I say "I am your father" is and well be known wider.

Also if someone said "You shall not pass" I would never think LOTR, I would probably think of Monty Python.

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Permalink Reply by Cozenlee on December 14, 2008 at 11:01am

When I hear "You Shall Not Pass" I think of Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Jason Segal in sweat pants watching LOTR.

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Permalink Reply by slit on January 31, 2009 at 11:36pm

I would say 'You Shall Not Pass' cuz it had a bigger impact on.my im 18 now sooo i wus 11 wen i shaw it.an wen i shaw star wars i already knew the story line so i didnt think nothing much of it just that it wus a crap twist of the movie.

now think of what scene is better id say no pass.cuz come oh think about louc has his hand cut off an he's craling away an then you get"i am your father" louc falls off.thats it.then you got Gandalf standing up to one big fucking fire demon TELLING it bitch you anit getting throw back the fuck up..agen big fucking fire demon vs father saying i miss you we shouldnt fight.

an im not saying lord of the ring is better then star wars.cuz it anit no fuck that.
fellowship-awesome.something new(full price)
2 tower-ahhh ok(matinee)
return-fuckin gay(rental)

new hope-boring as hell(but i understand it wus something new back then an it wus awesome)(rental)
empire-ok cool(matinee)
return-fucking sweeeeeeeeet awesome(full price)

I GUESS IT ALL DEPENDS ON YOUR AGE GROUP

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Permalink Reply by Orbital Drop Shock Trooper on January 31, 2009 at 11:57pm

I think you need to lay off the peyote if you think ROTJ is better than Empire, but I suppose it's your opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Orbital Drop Shock Trooper on January 31, 2009 at 11:57pm

Too bad I couldn't say "THIS IS SPARTAAAAAA" in this thread.

Gandalf's line is completely bad ass, but Vader's is one hell of a twist.

"There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." "I'LL NEVER JOIN YOU!" "If you only knew the power of the Dark Side. Obi-Wan never told you what happened to your father." "He told me enough! He told me YOU killed him!" "No. I am your father! Search your feelings, you know it to be true!"

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Permalink Reply by MDS on February 1, 2009 at 12:13am

Exactly.

Gandalf's line is just 'tough guy' talk. Nothing else.

Vader's line is a COMPLETE 'tough guy' form of "Fucking with your head, as well as your soul, and body".

Really, Gandalf's 'pass' line is just about buying time for the others to run.
Vader's "Father" line is going to mess with Luke's head. Was he going to continue to train as a Jedi ONLY to become his father? Was he going to STOP training and LOOSE to his father? Was he going to risk the heritage of his father MESSING with his Jedi training? What about the rebellion itself? What does it mean to be the 'hero' of the Rebellion when it's your OWN FATHER that is going to be hunting you down and killing your friends and compatriots? Is it possible that even after defeating your father's current evil regime, you aren't going to do the exact same thing later on? What about those 'evil personality traits' of betrayal, hatred, greed, etc,etc...that MIGHT pop up in Luke's life later on?

Really, "Father" line is MUCH more important to cinema, and as such to the culture in general. Especailly wen you understand that there IS potential for later 'Mind-fucking' even if it's never filmed.

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Permalink Reply by Captain Thunderball on February 1, 2009 at 12:20am

Veering off subject just for like 15 seconds. Sir Ian would have been a better Dumbledore.

That's all I'm saying,

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