Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Dirac on December 15, 2012 at 11:45pm

I just wanted to chime in (And complete change of subject) to point out the fact that this was WRONG.

You do realize that Thomas Jefferson was the one who coined the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", right?  You know... that whole letter to the Danbury Baptists?

The founding fathers wanted there to be no "Recognized Religion", meaning that the government doesn't endorse or follow a specific religion in establishing it's laws and practices.

No shit, Sherlock?  And who said otherwise?

This doesn't mean that they wanted the Government to establish that one religious viewpoint existed or didn't exist.

Oh, I get it.  You think that people supporting separation of church and state want to "establish that one religious viewpoint didn't exist"?  I have no idea where you got that idea, but it's wrong.  Whoops, I'm sorry, I mean it's WRONG.

They believed that while you should be guided by religion in the "way you conduct yourself", they didn't want religion to be the overpowering aspect of the government.

And that means not passing legislation guided by religious dogma.  So, really, you've made absolutely no point in your comment, since you've basically agreed with what Jon was saying.  You incorrectly assumed that he was referring to anything other than what Thomas Jefferson spoke of in his letters.  Well done indeed.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by MDS on December 16, 2012 at 1:17am

 You do realize that Thomas Jefferson........

There is a difference between a "wall of separation between church and state" and "separation of church and state". Jefferson's "coining" of that phrase was in letters pointing out that he believed that Government shouldn't dictate religious principles and that Religions shouldn't dictate governmental policies/practices. They are 2 individual entities that have their place in the forming of the human moral/ethical system and the body to which those humans practice their governmental obligations. Sadly, everyone (especially today" believes that "separation of church and state" is an indication that the government should have NO interaction at all with ANY FORM of religion or religious teachings. "God we trust", "One Nation under God", Public land/money being used for "nativity scenes"... etc,etc,etc.

 It's a fine point that I am tired of people using in the wrong way when making an argument.

Oh, I get it .........

It's that people who use the "separation of church and state" phrase, generally means that they are wanting Government agencies/officials to disavow ANY FORM of religion or religious beliefs. They (the people using the phrase) tend to think that it's a blanket statement in every aspect of government interactions. While I don't think that the government should PROMOTE a religion, I don't think that the government should disavow ALL religions.

So really you've made.......

My point was addressed specifically to Jon's statement that the founding fathers "Ordered" a separation of church and state. This statement (by itself) is a falsehood. The founding fathers never ordered anything of the type in ANY document that they used to create the framework of the US government. They may have EXPRESSED that opinion in other writings and in personal opinions and exchanges. But when it comes to the official creation of the government, they didn't actually "order" anything of the sort. And as Kiz pointed out. The main reason that they felt this way was to avoid making the US in the image of the Church of England (Where the "church bows to the government")... or the Vatican (Where the government of Vatican City bows to the church). Which is why when you look at the "separation of church and state" argument, you are looking NOT at a founding father issue, but more of a "modern day" interpretation.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by X. Just X. on December 18, 2012 at 9:22am

there is a documentary premiering tonight on PBS called "First Freedom," and it tackles the very subject of religious freedoms as the Framers conceived it.  interesting stuff, for those of you who have a vested interest in the subject, i suggest you give it a watch.  i also have several friends who appear in the movie as presidential reenactors.  (-:

the gentleman who directed it is himself very religious, so i hope it doesn't smack of propaganda.  but i am enjoying this discussion immensely.

Permalink Reply by Dirac on December 19, 2012 at 2:46pm

There is a difference between a "wall of separation between church and state" and "separation of church and state".

Of course, I would expect someone as obsessed with semantics as you to make such an assertion.

Jefferson's "coining" of that phrase was in letters pointing out that he believed that Government shouldn't dictate religious principles and that Religions shouldn't dictate governmental policies/practices.

And this is exactly what modern proponents of separation of church and state support.  So, what is the problem, here?

 Sadly, everyone (especially today" believes that "separation of church and state" is an indication that the government should have NO interaction at all with ANY FORM of religion or religious teachings.

Interacting with certain religious teachings would legitimize those religions and deligitimize others, hence demonstrating favoritism in the government for particular faiths and thus violating freedom of religion by implying that said faiths are intrinsically a part of our government's policies.  Insert facepalm meme here.

While I don't think that the government should PROMOTE a religion, I don't think that the government should disavow ALL religions.

If you don't disavow ALL religions, then you are, by definition, PROMOTING those that you are avowing.  For the love of Christ, how can you not understand this?  Oh, I know: because you're under the impression that your religion is the "right" one, so it's perfectly okay to hold it in a higher regard than others.  Because, as we all know, Christians are megalomaniacs like that.

My point was addressed specifically to Jon's statement that the founding fathers "Ordered" a separation of church and state. This statement (by itself) is a falsehood.

No, it isn't.  Unless Thomas Jefferson isn't considered a founding father.

The founding fathers never ordered anything of the type in ANY document that they used to create the framework of the US government.

If, by ANY, you mean, "not including the first amendment to the consitution."

And as Kiz pointed out.

You know you've hit rock bottom when the only person agreeing with you is Kizmania.

Which is why when you look at the "separation of church and state" argument, you are looking NOT at a founding father issue, but more of a "modern day" interpretation

According to your broken logic, yes.  But, as I've already explained, there is very little, if any, difference between the "modern day interpretation" of separation of curch and state and the "wall of separation between church and state".  Which you of course don't understand, because you think it's perfectly fine to favor your religion over others.  Tough shit, dude.

Permalink Reply by Haron Dick on December 15, 2012 at 1:10pm

I am from & love the Caribbean but Jamaica does sadden me on some issues. Some of the music is very homophobia for one but those are the songs I grew up with. "Gay Hate" is so much a part life it feels like betrayal to think other wise.

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• Next ›
• Page