Should Americans stop trying to make Kung-Fu movies or not?

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Permalink Reply by Cyrus on September 15, 2008 at 9:36pm

Do I think Hero or Fearless would have been better from an American company? I dunno. Maybe if they understood the Chinese culture well enough, but that aspect had nothing to do with martial arts and everything to do with the backdrop, history and story of the films in question. The Forbidden Kingdom was made from a mix of Caucasians and Asian creators and it came out just fine for my money.

Permalink Reply by Cyrus on September 15, 2008 at 10:21pm

For some reason this site refuses to let me "reply to this" after a certain number of comments on a thread so I'm forced to take this to the end. Your 'stylish flair' response, MDS, doesn't make any sense to me because my use of the phrase indicates that The Matrix contains Asian elements, which it surely does. So what's wrong with the directors choosing to mix these things in? You say nothing happens with it until the character starts having things downloaded into his brain. So? He's just entered an entirely different world with different rules, different things appealing to the characters...you are so so so so so so...you know what? This is pointless. You're not going to change your mind. I've said my piece, and you don't care and you've said yours and I'M certainly not going to stop loving this brilliant film just because you can't reconcile characters in it having an affection for Asian culture and fighting styles.

Permalink Reply by MDS on September 15, 2008 at 10:32pm

First things first. Yeah, the limited number of 'Reply to this' does get annoying.

Second. I'm not saying I hate The Matrix. (Let me say that again.. I AM NOT saying I hate The Matrix.) While I DO believe parts 2 and 3 weren't as good as 1, I still like The Matrix Part 1enough to say it's one of the best Science-Fiction movies made in the last 20yrs. It's got a completely TIGHT concept that the script is able to answer most questions that people have, with the few questions not answered being covered by the visual mediums. It's a GOOD movie that is well acted, has a very centered plot line that is advanced through out the movie. And the characters all work with interacting with each other on multiple levels that is completely and utterly astonishing. It DESERVES all the praises it gets for being a very good movie, and I highly enjoy the first Matrix movie.

That being said, I think the Kung-fu in the Matrix movies just doesn't feel right to me with the characters and their situations. It's not a bash on the movie as a whole, it's just that I don't think the proper choice of combat was Martial arts as shown in the movie. It should (In my opinion) been much more gritty/brutal or 'dirty'. Fighting techniques and styles like what was used in Fight Club, or in Die Hard, would have worked. It's NOT clean/defined, it's improvised on the fly and it's completely believable that this Character is fighting this 'dirty style' because it's outside the thinking/programming of the Matrix itself.

While I understand that a lot of people generally love the fight scenes in the Matrix, they are normally the parts that I use the bathroom or get a drink or zone out during. It's just doesn't feel 'right' to me for those characters. OUTSIDE of the fight scenes, I love the movie for everything else that it does.

Permalink Reply by Cyrus on September 15, 2008 at 10:40pm

A: I agree that it would have been nice to see a sequel to The Matrix. Other two films: never happened. The last I will speak of them.

B: I wish you could get the same pleasure I and so many people I know get out of those fight scenes. They are gorgeous. This coming from a guy who's watched hundreds of Chinese martial arts films and still...these are gorgeous. What it comes down to ultimately, as I've been saying, is that it's all about taste and that's it.

Permalink Reply by MDS on September 15, 2008 at 10:49pm

I just think that particular style of fighting wasn't the best choice. Now, if that's taste or perception I can't say. It's just not the style of combat that I would have opted to use.

Permalink Reply by corey vire on September 16, 2008 at 7:38pm

MDS so you're saying only asians can do "good" kung fu? If that's you're point you have no point to stand on. so stop before you make it worse. The fact that Fishburne and Reeves went from novices to movie fighters in such a short amount of time is testament to his skills.
Being ready on the first day of shooting, which they were, is not an issue due to a little thing you may have missed called thing called pre-production. So their need to train is a moot point. Actors take prepro time to get in shape, get fat, grow beards, and so on. That's what it's for.
All movie combat is for the cameras. Yuen woo gets that. thats why he get paid what he gets paid. Thats why his movies rock. He's not only a master MA but a master choreographer. Whikle you can say non asian/american kungfu movies arent up to snuff their acting in asia is not up to standard either.

Permalink Reply by MDS on September 17, 2008 at 12:24am

I'm saying that no matter how good the American Studios are able to do Martial arts in their films, I don't think it will be as good as the ones my by Asian Studios. It's not a knock on the actors/characters as much as I'm trying to point out that the Asian Studios have better people in place for filming, choreographing, staging, preparing, and general movie making techniques and tricks that makes it better than American Studios can do.

While I think that Reeves and Fishburne did the best they could do with the limited time they had available to preparing, that doesn't mean the scenes with them fighting was a good as the scenes of asians actors fighting. It's all about the way a scene is put together, shot, staged, edited and lit. I just think Asian studios have people that are more experienced that can bring a different level than American studios.

Permalink Reply by corey vire on September 16, 2008 at 7:54pm

never mind what i said in my first sentence. The Matrix wasn't a martial arts movie. It was sci-fi that had martial arts in it. Technically the Charactors didnt even know knug fu. Still the fight scenes were epic. I think the way the guys moved in them was more the way you'd actually fight. They were gritty, rough, and coarse. They weren't quite street fight not quite straigh MA.

Permalink Reply by MDS on September 17, 2008 at 12:29am

That's my point I'm trying to make about the characters (Not the Actors).

To me, Neo and Morpheous would have been more interesting characters by having street fighting or 'Brawling' styles of combat. When these characters fight, they have no defined style or technique. This makes the Agents have a hard time fighting them, because the Agents are still trapped inside the programming and constantly doing 'clean' or defined styles, while the 'humans' are constantly breaking the rules and defined rules by being able to improvise.

Like I said to Cryus, I'm not sure if this is just a personal perception on what I think would have fit the characters better, or if it's a matter of taste. It's just that I think the characters would have been better shown to break the 'rules' of the Matrix by being able to improvise on the fly, while the Agents are limited to strict/stylistic fighting techniques.

Permalink Reply by Dardrex on January 20, 2009 at 3:35am

I liked the Matrix... but I agree America doesn't know how to do fights scenes anywhere near the ability of Hong Kong. They bring Yuen Whoo Ping to America to choreograph and then film the fight terribly and cut it bad because America doesn't know how to shoot action... they honestly don't... their idea of shooting action is cutting up a fight to shit like in the Bourne films. LAME.

They need to bring an HK choreographer in and let him take over the set during the fights... it's what Hong Kong does and it works. It's what they did in Fist of Legend. Choreographers also know how to shoot action... Donnie Yen, Yuen Woo Ping, and Jackie Chan know their shit about cameras.

Do I think they should stop... no... I make Martial arts movies... I'm American. I don't think martial arts movie should stop... I just want them to do it right.

Look at a indie film CONTOUR made by a San Francisco Stunt Team THE STUNT PEOPLE. It's exactly what american blockbuster need to do with the genre. I worked with these guys myself and they are amazing. You can net flix it.

Permalink Reply by MDS on January 20, 2009 at 1:23pm

Thank you...

You mention the "INDIE" film making companies and teams. That's my point. The 'unknown' or 'undiscovered' American Indie film companies are even better at doing Kung-fu movies than the big named WB, Fox, Paramount companies are.

It's not (Again...NOT) A bad thing for the bigger companies to want and TRY making it, it's just not their strong point for making movies.

Permalink Reply by Mr Hatake on January 20, 2009 at 12:34pm

I am not sure why everyone is talking about The Matrix. It's not even a "kung-fu movie" its a sci-fi movie that happens to have kung-fu in it. Now if The Matrix was called "The Legend Of Downloadable Kung-Fu" then we can debate and discuss why The Legend Of Downloadable Kung-Fu is a reason why Non-Asian studios should stop making kung-fu movies.

I think ALL studios need to stop making "kung-fu movies".

- The world ran out of Kung-Fu mythology concepts.
The Monkey King will be raped for the second time (Dragonball:Evolution)

- Yuen Woo Ping exhausted all his routines to a point that he is just recycling his old ideas.

- If a kung fu movie parody (kung fu hustle) is better than most kung-fu movies, we need to let the genre die.

- If you can make a tribute to a genre (kill bill 2), the genre is dead.

- The only way an american studio can do kung-fu successfully, is in animated form (Avatar: The Last Airbender)
The live action will prove that it should never ever ever ever be done again.

- The Forbidden Kingdom. (The Original Monkey King raping)
I really shouldn't have to say much more than that. But for the people who actually liked that movie. Here it goes (again).
So, people are debating about wire-fu vs kung-fu. Mainly because it takes away from the art. But for a kid who doesn't know better, they can easily believe it. But for the adults who have seen all the behind the scenes dvd bonus features, we have to try so hard to ignore the movie magic to get into a wire-fu movie. But what do you do when you can't ignore all the politics involved? They sold this movie as a Jackie Chan and Jet Li Kung-Fu movie. I thought Jackie Chan and Jet Li together was going to be a historic event in kung-fu movie history. Sadly, the story was disneyfied and ended up being about a white boy hero. To hollywood its business. To the majority its just entertainment. To the minority its offensive. To me and my kid its garbage.

The genre is dead. Let it Rest In Peace.
How many times are we going to let Bruce Lee roll over in his grave?

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